What makes a great engineering manager? (Part 1 - Erica Woods of Stacklet)
A new multi-part interview series exploring this crucial role at tech companies
Let me start off by asking a question - what makes a great engineering manager (EM)? If you’re someone who’s worked alongside many different ones, I’m sure you’ve got your opinions. But really, what makes a really great one? There’s a lot that’s been written about managers of all kinds, and given this fact, I’m only seeking to compliment the wealth of existing literature by creating this series focused on EMs specifically.
In my software engineer and engineering manager coaching practice, I prefer to use as many concrete examples and mental imagery as possible instead of more discussing more abstract concepts. It’s in this spirit that I want to introduce this new series of interviews with different professionals who all have unique experiences with engineering management, including some who currently are engineering manager practitioners. I’ll also be experimenting with audio form that pair with these interviews, but I won’t be doing that immediately. Instead, I’ll follow up with deeper dives of the written interviews in this series.
Erica Woods is the first person that I interviewed and is someone who’s been incredibly meaningful in my life and in my own career. She is someone who profoundly redefined for me what the role of HR is in an organization and has been instrumental in supporting my journey into launching my software engineering coaching business.
Erica is an incredibly talented and experienced HR professional having worked at many different companies, including being Head of People and Culture for the company behind Ubuntu Linux, Canonical, which is where I first met her. Erica is currently the head of People and Culture at the exciting open source cloud governance tech startup - Stacklet. Erica currently works alongside many EMs as a primary point-of-support, enabler, problem-solver and mentor. She brings incredibly nuanced perspective to what it means to be a great EM.
I hope you enjoy this interview with Erica as well as each of the future interviews in this series. I’ll ask these same questions to each incredibly talented person and I hope you find new and useful perspective that helps you be not just any EM, but a truly great one. Speaking from my own experience, EMs have the ability to make a huge daily impact starting with the relationships you have with the incredible engineers that you lead. Keep this in mind as you read this series.
Now, on to my interview with Erica…
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Conversation with Erica Woods
JH: First off, please introduce yourself.
EW: I’m Erica Woods. I currently work with a wonderful tech start-up called Stacklet. Our focus is on cloud governance and security (think Cloud Custodian as a SaaS). I’m their Head of People & Culture. I’ve worked in People Operations (HR) for 20+ years across many fields and in many countries.
JH: And for the benefit of my readers, please mention how we know each other.
EW: Of course! I had the great pleasure of working with you during our time at Canonical. You were one of many Engineering Managers who made my life easier. I believe we actually “met” during a team gathering in South Africa.
JH: In what ways do you interact with engineering managers on a regular basis in your job?
EW: I interact with engineering managers in a few ways - as the escalation point when they have issues related to their team members, in a service capacity when they need to hire (talent acquisition), and as a mentor to new engineering managers.
JH: You mentioned you’re an escalation point and a mentor to new engineering managers…can you speak to some of the specifics that you see new engineering managers needing help with and you encourage to come talk to you about?
EW: As an escalation point, I’m the person who serves to help Engineering Managers (and team members) when they need help with myriad peaceful/reasonable resolutions of conflicts or issues, regardless of whether those issues are related to performance or personality. HR gets a bad rep (read: the cake is a lie …and in this case, “cake” refers to any time you’ve heard that either “HR fired” someone or “HR got someone put on a PIP” or something similar). Our role is merely to help managers make hard decisions about their teams and to assist with them as they execute on that decision.
JH: Without naming someone specifically, who comes to mind as the best example of being an outstanding engineering manager?
EW: Wow…there are a lot of those. I’ve been very fortunate to work with a lot of great engineering managers (you were one …I think it’s ok to disclose that, right?!). I won’t make up names, I’ll use initials instead - DB, DH, DL, and PG round out the top 5 in my mind at the moment.
Note to readers: these are all examples ranging from a literal Engineering Manager, to Director and VP of Engineering.
JH: What are 3 of the most significant attributes and habits these people have/do on a regular basis that are specifically related to them being outstanding engineering managers?
EW: These are in no particular order, but because you asked for 3 (even though I’m giving you 4), I’ll give them a number listing. :-)
Listening - exceptional engineering managers are patient and kind listeners. Because they trust their team members, they pay incredibly close attention to what each of them are saying. Listening (and watching) also helps exceptional managers play to their team members’ strengths, grow them through the things that challenge them, and encourage them to step outside of their comfort zones to grow in new and often exciting ways in their career.
They have an ego-less approach - a great manager understands, without question, that although as the manager all roads lead to them, there is no point in attaching to the work in a way that expresses itself negatively. They understand how to delegate well (and patiently), how to consciously walk with their team members through successes, challenges, and failures, and how to hold everyone up so that, even on the worst days, everyone feels empowered to bring their best selves to each situation.
They are servant-leaders or player/coaches - many managers approach people management as a “top-down” task, which often leads to high turnover or disengaged team members. I’ve found that when managers task themselves with seeing their main role as one of growing and empowering their team members, those team members respond by growing and staying (or by becoming managers themselves).
They care deeply about the work and their teams - excellent managers are able to easily convey their passion for the work at hand. They also exude a spirit of caring for and trusting in the people performing the work. They don’t miss moments to celebrate their team members, whether for a work accomplishment or a birthday. They see the entire person who works with them (not “for” them) and respond to that entire person in every situation with empathy, compassion, and in a reasonable/kind manner.
JH: What are some common ways that you see engineering managers get into trouble in their role?
EW: There are two ways that I see most commonly - 1) They decide that they don’t need their team and can “do it all” themselves. Typically, this stems from wanting to take a “firefighter” approach because they feel that it’s easier to put out all fires themselves than to delegate to teach their team members. 2) They don’t understand how to (or simply to) protect their team members. They take an “I” approach to management instead of recognizing the “we” inherent in teams (or as that old adage goes, “There’s no “i” in “team.”). All it takes is for a group to see one team member thrown under a bus, or held to a standard that the manager needs to be held to, to tank morale and shift the trust the team needs to have in its manager.
JH: What do you think is the most important set of proficiencies for an engineering manager to focus on - improving their people and team management skills or improving their technical skills, or maybe something else? Why?
EW: I think that depends on the role, the manager, and the team. One of the engineering managers I mentor finds it incredibly important to stay technically relevant, and for their role within their team/company, that’s accurate and wise. Another one I support describes himself happily as the “least technical person on his team,” and hires the most brilliant and technically competent engineers so that he can focus on growing himself as an excellent people manager. I’m going to quote the Oracle here (because I’m a nerd), one must “Know Thyself.” If staying technical is important for you, find a team/company where that will be valued and hire in a way that builds everyone’s skills. If you actually want a path away from the deeply technical, then commit yourself to that and hire brilliant, trustworthy, and highly technical people and then trust them to do what they do best.
JH: What are key differences between being a key individual contributor on a team (e.g. tech lead) versus being an engineering manager?
EW: I see the tech lead/key IC role as being about the technology. They have to work with a team, but the guidance they provide to that team relates to work related to the technology.
I see the engineering manager role as a dual role that begins with the people. Those people must understand the technology and feel guided to do their best work with the technology, and it is the manager’s job to ensure that the team does this efficiently and effectively.
JH: What are the most important attributes and habits you look for in an engineer to where you feel comfortable promoting them to being an engineering manager? Does it matter what role(s) they are currently working in or have worked in before they’re ready to be a great engineering manager?
EW: The first things I look for in a manager of any kind are empathy and kindness. They don’t need to be “woo woo mushy” humans (said with a laugh). However, they do need to have the ability to understand and respond to different perspectives from their own in a manner that translates easily to others. Engineers write code that takes a device or software from point A to point B and too often, this gets confused with “being strategic thinkers.” For better or worse, I haven’t seen that translate well from the IC space into Engineering Managers, because it doesn’t consider the human element. Humans are not as predictable as code (surprise surprise) and one needs to think beyond the line (point A to B) and often in curves, circles, and waves to be strategic and fluid as a people manager.
In answer to your question, I’ve never seen it matter which type of role someone is in prior to becoming an engineering manager. What matters is how they are trained and how they use their training to grow.
JH: What specific advice would you give to a brand new engineering manager that would really help them succeed at their new role?
EW: Simply, get a mentor, take good notes, and follow their guidance. Whether that mentor is an experienced manager you respect within your current company, a former manager at a different company, or someone you or your employer pays to mentor you.
I’d also highly recommend that a new manager get good at delegating quickly. :-)
JH: I couldn’t agree more. I literally would not have made it as a new engineering manager without the mentoring of my own manager at the time, and then later from the help of an amazing VP of Eng role model during my time at Canonical.
A shameless plug for my readers who are new EMs
If you don’t have someone at your company who can mentor/coach you, please reach out to me. I’m excited to hear your story and see if we’re a good fit to work together on helping you grow as an engineering manager, feel more aligned with your values, and reach your goals.
JH: Is there anything else you’d like to add about what being a great engineering manager is all about?
EW: Hmm …final thoughts …I’d reiterate the “Know Thyself,” piece. People management isn’t for everyone and I always advise new managers to have an exit plan that is based squarely in knowing themselves and respecting their needs. If you don’t love people management within the first year or two, please shift to an IC role (again, without ego or attachment - see it as an act of self love). Life is too short to spend a long time doing work (or anything) you don’t enjoy.
This would feel quite scary and disruptive to a current EM, particularly if one isn’t completely enamored with being a IC engineer role again.
But why is it important for an EM who isn’t loving people management within their first year or two to make a change to an IC role again and how might someone make this transition well?
JH: Erica, it’s been an absolute honor and privilege, thanks for answering my questions in such a thoughtful way.
Feel free to leave a comment if you’d like me to add to the list of questions I ask my guests on any particular aspect of being a great EM that I haven’t covered - I am happy to ask my future interviewees any interesting new questions from you my readers.
Also, make sure to subscribe to this publication so you don’t miss any other interviews in this series. Thanks for reading.
Please enjoy!
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Did this question have a response? asking for a friend.
"But why is it important for an EM who isn’t loving people management within their first year or two to make a change to an IC role again and how might someone make this transition well?"